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Author
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Topic: timing on Trade Units? (Battle of the MODs(with me running interference))
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RoddyVR
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posted
ok, i want to get this answered 'comprehensively' instead of your(mods) usual "ye" or "ask glen/fighter". so i gonna give you mods a list of choises that i think are the possible answers, and all you gotta do is PICK.
ok, here is the situation:
i signed a trade agreement with Israel and we started building the FTCs on turn 6.
as far as i understand, they finish on turn 10 (now)
here is question 1:
at what point am i allowed to strat building trade units?
A. anytime you want (turn 1 if you cared to).
B. once you started construction of your first FTC (turn 6 in this case).
C. once the FTC that will 'house' that unit is ordered(meaning i could build upto 3 for now, starting on turn 6)
D. once the FTC that will 'house' that unit is finished.
E. none of the above. please explain.
continuing the story. Now this turn (10) my FTC is finished, and i am building a trade ship. here's question 2:
When do i get my first payment from the trade?
A. Start of next turn you get the +4 credits. because your unit has to 'complete' the trade route before you get the money.
B. Start of this turn. Cause you trading now.
now for that one i might need a clarification if the answer is B (which i suspect it is). so here's question 2.1(only need an answer if the answer to 2 was B):
What happens if: in the future i have a route with 6 trade ships on it (2 ftc in each country) and its being guarded by one creuser. now on turn x i think that the trade route might be attacked, so using the 24 cr i get from the trade route (for trading this turn) i build another cruiser to defend the trade ships. the 'caravan' gets attacked anyway, and 3 of the trade ships get sunk and the cruiser i built barely survives (the older one getting destroyed). now we got our selves a paradox. because of attack the trade dont get completed, so i dont have the money (in the beggining of the turn) to build the new cruiser, (so do i unbuy the unit?) which means the attack would have been REALY successfull and i would have lost the whole convoy (cause i would have had 1/2 the defences)
ok, so i got away from my multiple choise thing, but so sue me, i would still like an answer(for each question).
[ September 21, 2002, 16:58: Message edited by: RoddyVR ]
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USA in Modern WarGame
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RoddyVR
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oh, since the answers to these questions determines how much money i start my turn with. i cant do my turn (officialy) untill they are answered.
(call it an incentive if you want. lol ![[Wink]](wink.gif) )
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USA in Modern WarGame
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uknemesis
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lol I know I'm not a mod, but I'm just going to put what I think it should be:
1) A - you can build the units whenever you want, just they can't trade unless they have a FTC which can handle them(and therefore take on/off the goods allowing them to do the trading)
2) B - and in your example, I personally think that the trade would have been completed for that turn, and that they were attacked on their way back. So basically any loss is only incurred the turn after, almost as if a factory you owned had been destroyed.
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President Nemesis of the People's Republic of China
With the might of Xin Sheng, China will rise once more!
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-gbotto600-
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if trade units are attacked they are considered destroyed for the next turns, not hte turn they are destoryed, but you can also simply 'blockade' trade uinits rather than blow them out of the water/sky
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Decima MAS
  \
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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RoddyVR
Junior Member
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posted
ok, thanks.
UK, you suck, because you put that up, glen didnt 'have' to answer my questions, he just (i think) confirmed what you said.
Glen, i assume that you just 'Legalized' UK's assumption, and i am also assuming that when you say "you can blockade instead of Blowing up" that the "takes effect next turn" still applies.
if i any of my assumptions are wrong, post something, otherwise i'm assuming that my assumptions are correct. (confused yet? lol)
EDIT: Realized i had another question about this stuff.
Does the income from trade count toward one's CPT income? (does it raise the price of the factory?)
Or is it just a "one time income" that happens to happen on a regular basis?
[ September 17, 2002, 21:15: Message edited by: RoddyVR ]
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USA in Modern WarGame
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Shagi_Fighter 
Monkey See Monkey Do
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posted
HELLO HELLO
If you buy a Trade Boat on Turn 10, you don't get the +4 credits until Turn 11.
A trade boat raises your Credit Income, so factories will cost more with more trade you have.
You can only by 1 trade unit a turn. And you can only start buying them on the same day the FTC is finished, not before.
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Posts: 5935 (0.96 per day) | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002 (6169 days)
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RoddyVR
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ok, THIS one i blame on UK. its all his dam fault.
man, WHY THE HELL did you have to reply BEFORE one of the mods did. you spoiled the WHOLE thing.
if you hadnt replied first then glen would have said what you did, and fighter would have been unable to contradict him. NOW we gonna have to wait for glen to post to this thread AGAIN (which he wont, judging from past experience).
ok, fighter, if your rule is the ACTUAL rule, then i suggest you check some of the trading that's been going on. i am not sure that people are 'breaking' your rule in this game(aint wasting time like in last game to check, thats your job), but i KNOW that it worked the other way in game 3.
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USA in Modern WarGame
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Shagi_Fighter
Monkey See Monkey Do
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posted
HELLO HELLO
It's just like Factories!
How the hell can anyone think that they can buy a trade units in one turn and get money for it also that same turn.
Everyone better read this. EVERYONE better fix their threads too that need fixing because something is going to happen very soon. It's a secret though.
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Posts: 5935 (0.96 per day) | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002 (6169 days)
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RoddyVR
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one of the people who has to fix his thread is.....
GLEN
IF he goes by the rules posted above by Fighter, then this is what is wrong with his thread
on turn 10
his FTC got completed. (not sure who he's trading with, but it dont realy matter)
he built his FIRST trade ship.
AND
he collected 4 cr for trade income
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USA in Modern WarGame
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uknemesis
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Jesus, just cause I like to give my opinion on absolutely everything ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Anyway, Fighter I can't see why you shouldn't be able to build trade units before you have a trade centre, since the trade centre just can only allow you to get income from them.
Basically, I see a trade centre as the place where they load and unload goods. That means you can have the trade units, but they aren't going to do you much good until you have a FTC capable of loading and unloading them.
As for the trade units thing, well a) it seems that Glenn is doing it the first way, so why shouldn't we? and b) why would you have to wait till next turn? Factories you don't wait till next turn, you get their money on the turn they're completed.
That's my opinion, ignore it if you wish.
As for "A trade boat raises your Credit Income, so factories will cost more with more trade you have. ", why do we need that said? We all already know that.
Nemesis
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President Nemesis of the People's Republic of China
With the might of Xin Sheng, China will rise once more!
Posts: 1580 (0.24 per day) | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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-gbotto600-
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u start getting the credits from trade units the turn u build em.. i thought this was how everyone was doing it ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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RoddyVR
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ok, so now we have two mods doing it differently.
i suggest that we make the rule to be the way glen has it: you get moeny as soon as logicaly possible, menaing the turn that you have a trade unit (even if you build it this turn) and an FTC for the trade unit to use.
so an ftc started turn 6, and a trade unit built on turn 10 give you +4 cash on turn 10.
the reason i suggest this meathod is that there are atleast 3 countries already doing it this way, and changing it would mean they have to go back and kill off units which could change some battles, which would create more work for the mods, and since that seems to be the bane of their existanse, i (again) suggest we go with glens way.
which would mean that there are some people who have a few more credits then they thought they did (fighter and me being two of em).
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USA in Modern WarGame
Premier of the CCCP in the Cold War Game
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Teapot
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lol that way makes no sence to me...the way i have been doing it is..say i bought a trade unit on turn 8, i would start getting the credits for the trade route turn 9..thats how i thought it was supposed to be done...
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If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization. - Weinberg's Second Law
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Shagi_Fighter
Monkey See Monkey Do
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posted
HELLO HELLO
I've been the biggest trader in this game, and I've been the biggest trader in the last game, even though int he last game it was short lived. I was the one that came up with the trading idea for this game.
Now, we're sticking with the rule that when you buy the unit you get credits for it the day after. As for factories, the only reason you get money for them when they are completed is because you bought them 2 days before.
And why can't you buy trade units before the Trade Center is up? If we had it so you could, then what the heck would be the point of building ONE a turn!? (If you don't get what I mean by that talk to me on AIM) Seriously, we got these rules in place so we don't have people getting 100 credits a turn by Day 10 or whatever.
Anyway, I say the rule stands as is. By turn 13 anyone who cheated should subrtact all the extra credits they made from their starting credits for that day.
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Posts: 5935 (0.96 per day) | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002 (6169 days)
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Demetrias
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Since every one else has put there opion here i just want to add mine. The way Fighter is doing it makes sense to me because it would agree with the you don't get income until the next turn. The definition in the info topic of trade units is units that take things from your country to another country and come back with money or other goods. Sunkin ships don't make money nor do plans that are shoot down. I mean look at world trade in the real world. Oil companies make no money on oil tankers that reck before they off load there oil. If things don't make it to their destination then you don't make money off of them. Make it so you get money the turn trade units are built or for that specific turn they are used means that your having people pay up front for their goods and people only do this if they have insurance that they will get paid if things go wrong. So no matter what if the ship was sunk the company does not make money off it cause they either bought the goods and lost money on them or have to remburse some one else for the goods they lost. Trade so give credits the turn after not the turn of.
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" There is always two a master and an apprentice."
Don Rapheal Fiore
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Shagi_Fighter
Monkey See Monkey Do
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HELLO HELLO
quote:
Originally posted by Demetrias:
The definition in the info topic of trade units is units that take things from your country to another country and come back with money or other goods.
Thank you for bringing that up, because I was going to myself. If Glenn had originally said you get the credits right away I would have done it, because it would have meant at least 24 extra credits for me by now.
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Posts: 5935 (0.96 per day) | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002 (6169 days)
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uknemesis
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But what you're trying to say is if the trade unit is destroyed, then you get no money from it that turn.
But as Roddy pointed out, that would mean that a unit you'd bought with the income from that trade unit could no longer be afforded, resulting in the combat being changed and it getting even worse.
I've given up on the when you get your income argument(wonder if Glenn's sorted out his nation yet), but saying that cause your unit is destroyed you don't get the money from it that turn is ridiculous, since you've already spent the money and it ends up a nightmare to keep track of.
Nemesis
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President Nemesis of the People's Republic of China
With the might of Xin Sheng, China will rise once more!
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RoddyVR
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i dont know who thinkg how this thing is working, but now that we know that what glen has/had is not the info to base the rule on, this is how i understand the rules for trade units. i know i do run-on senctences, sorry
on turn 1 you build a FTC
turns 1-4 you cant build trade units
at the beggining of turn 5, that FTC is completed
that means you can now build trade units, one a turn.
on turn 5 you build a trade ship and send it off to trade with someone.
in the beggining of turn 6 you get the 4 income from that first trade ship. in turn 6 you build another trade ship, and send both off to trade with someone.
on turn 7 you get 8 income (cause you had 2 ships trade succesfully last turn). in turn 7 you build your third trade ship. all 3 go to trade.
on turn 8 you get 12 income for your trading. and again send them off to trade.
on turn 9 you get 12 income and send them to trade, BUT they get attacked/blockaded (or the ftc you were trading with no longer accepts them, cause the country you had a trade agreement with dont like you no more)
on turn 10 you DO NOT GET ANY trade income cause your trade last turn didnt happen. so on turn 10 still, you send them to a differnet country to trade with someone else (they got screwed by your old partner too).
on turn 11 you get 12 income (because of the new trading).
now since this whole time you only had 1 FTC, that means you CANT build a 4th trade unit even if you wanted too.
BEFORE you build more trade units, you have to have another FTC COMPLETED
=========================================
just FYI. assuming your trade routes work (no interuptions), on turn 12 you will have gotten 72 cr, for spending 68 (20 FTC, + 48 for 3 ships)
if you compare this meathod of getting money to factories:
a factory that cost you 42 cr brings 3 cpt. so it takes 16 turns to make back the money you 'invested' (2 to build and 14 in getting money)
so trading not only pays for itsself FASTER, but it also brings more money in afterwards (12 cpt instead of 3) then factories once you get to over 30 cpt income.
btw, if you build 2 factories for 31 each (62 cr investment, about the same as FTC with 3 boats), it will take you 13 turns to make back that cash(2 turns building and 11 making cash), and again, afterwards you are only making 6 cpt instead of 12
so its still worse then trading.
the biggest down side to trading is that you can only build 1 FTC every 3 turns MAX (you can do less ofcourse) to still be able to build the units for them.
now, if fighter posts here that i got ANY of that wrong, then i will be confused, but untill that i will believe that i got that right (and you can too)
[ September 20, 2002, 17:39: Message edited by: RoddyVR ]
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USA in Modern WarGame
Premier of the CCCP in the Cold War Game
Posts: 403 (0.06 per day) | From: Russian in USA | Registered: Aug 2002 (6021 days)
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-gbotto600-
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people have been getting income from trade units from the turn they buy them, many people did this and i 'beleived' this to be the expected norm and it is
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Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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Shagi_Fighter
Monkey See Monkey Do
Member # 443
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posted
HELLO HELLO
BRAVO! You explained it perfectly Roddy.
@UKnemesis: If you trade units is destroyed on Turn 10, you still get your credits for that turn.
And for those of you who are not following the rules. See, many of you are thinking, so what if I accidently gave myself money right away on the same turn I buy the trade unit. It's only 4 credits. Well if I had done that myself I'd be around 30 credits richer. So if I come in your template and I see that you didn't fix it, or you didn't pay back whatever you owe, I'm going to take the money our FOR YOU. If you got any questions contact me.
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Posts: 5935 (0.96 per day) | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002 (6169 days)
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-gbotto600-
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wtf? my rules are now being changed because some people forgot? errm um NO ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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-gbotto600-
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posted
i was alittle too mean in that post, i take back my swearISIMOS!
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Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
| IP: Logged |
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-gbotto600-
Addicted Member
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posted
the trade rulen will stay as DIS rulen:
the turn u buy DIER trade uniten u get DIER crediten, ja?
--------------------
Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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RoddyVR
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posted
glen,
personaly i prefer your rules, but i want RULES on the matter that STAY permanent. fighter atleast has a SET of rules that make sense logicaly.
you just want to change as little as possible.
if the rule is as you say "get money same turn you build unit" then please explain the SET of rules that HAS to go with that to make the trade system work. you CANT just change that ONE aspect of fighter's system.
because then what happens if you build a trade unit,send it to trade and it gets DESTROYED by an enemy THAT SAME TURN. do you still get the extra 4 credits?
if your answer is 'yes' then : FOR WHAT? nothing ever actualy TRADED.
if your answer is 'no' then: that will cause MORE WORK for you in the future. because every time someone attacks one of your trade units you will have to REDO your WHOLE turn because you will have less money at the START of that turn, which means you might HAVE to REDO battle outcomes, which might kill some MORE trade units, and AGAIN you would HAVE to redo a turn AND an outcome.
just as a warning: I DOUBT that fighter will REDO outcomes that have to be done AGAIN cause of YOUR trading rules. so that means that as soon as any player on player wars start, YOU will have to do a LOT of work in this game (for your own turns and others' outcomes). and since you seem to want to avoid that......
so either post a FULL set of trade rules that make it somehow that no one will have to REDO a turn cause of something that happens WITHIN that turn, or agree to follow fighter's rules.
i know your thinking "its my game, i made it, they cant tell me how the rules work". but you're wrong, you cant have it your way just cause you want to, fighter is a mod in the game too, and more importantly HIS TRADE RULE SET WORKS
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USA in Modern WarGame
Premier of the CCCP in the Cold War Game
Posts: 403 (0.06 per day) | From: Russian in USA | Registered: Aug 2002 (6021 days)
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-gbotto600-
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posted
and how do mine not work?
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Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
| IP: Logged |
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RoddyVR
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posted
well....
A. no one knows what they ARE! thats the biggest problem
B. please explain what WILL happen when a trade ship gets sunk and someone has to REDO their turn
C. ok, i cant realy think of a C. but the first one is the biggy.
considering that everyone and their brother has their own set of trade rules, it would be VERY helpfull (if not neccessary) if you would explain what exactly your rules ARE. and i mean all of em, not just the one aspect of fighter's that you dont like, cause it dont make sence AT ALL to use fighters rules but get money the first turn you have a trade unit. it dont work logicaly.
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USA in Modern WarGame
Premier of the CCCP in the Cold War Game
Posts: 403 (0.06 per day) | From: Russian in USA | Registered: Aug 2002 (6021 days)
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-gbotto600-
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Member # 155
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posted
A. The turn u buy the trade unit it starts and u get the income from it starting on that turn..
B. If its sunk u dont get credits anymore for the next turn... (u get the credits for that turn but not anymore since its gone)
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Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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RoddyVR
Junior Member
Member # 660
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posted
ok, so in the case of-
hypothetical situation here
i am in a brutal war with britain. they have COMPLETE control of the atlantic. i have(still) a trade agreement with with israel. and we still have our FTCs (just no trade boats anymore cause they got sunk a LONG time ago). now:
i get 4 credtis at the start of turn X. build a trade ship on turn X (thats wy i got the 4 cr) and send it to trade with Israel. the ship gets blown to smitherines before the rear end of it leaves the harbor in NY. does that make sense to you?
if you say "screw logic, this is how the rules are gonna work", and fighter sais "glen's the main mod, we follow his rules" then i will be fine with ANYTHING. but while you two are disagreeing i am gonna stick by logic.
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USA in Modern WarGame
Premier of the CCCP in the Cold War Game
Posts: 403 (0.06 per day) | From: Russian in USA | Registered: Aug 2002 (6021 days)
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-gbotto600-
Addicted Member
Member # 155
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posted
u get the credits because we can say the ship was sunk as it transfered across the sea, but this makes sense since it will be a big losse to you because you'll have to stop trading since the cost of the trade ships is more than you get from the credits each turn
--------------------
Decima MAS
\
When ancient Rome was near defeat,
the invincible Tenth Legion was raised:
they beat the barbarians on the battlefield
and Rome gained peace with honour again.
When the traitor, on September the eighth,
left the fatherland in infamy,
the Tenth Flotilla was raised from the sea
and it brought weapons at the cry for honour!
Oh our Tenth Flotilla,
you that mocked England,
you victorious on Alexandria,
Malta, Souda and Gibraltar,
you already victorious upon the sea,
now even on the dry land
you will win!
To you Italian ships, stolen from us
not in battle but by treason,
and to you, our prisoners and dead brothers,
we swear:
we swear that we'll came back,
let this be God's and the Flag's will.
We swear that we'll fight
until we obtain an honourable peace!
Posts: 7713 (1.19 per day) | From: NJ | Registered: May 2001 (6475 days)
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